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	<title>Comments on: Surveillance, Identity, and Meaning (part 3):Enlightened by All Things</title>
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		<title>By: ian</title>
		<link>http://www.reclusland.com/compass/2009/01/23/surveilance-identity-and-meaning-part-3enlightened-by-all-things/comment-page-1/#comment-959</link>
		<dc:creator>ian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Mar 2009 20:56:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reclusland.com/compass/?p=783#comment-959</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.cracked.com/article_15655_5-awesome-sci-fi-inventions-that-would-actually-suck.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Imagine how you&#039;ll react if you&#039;re in your holodeck and somebody interrupts you. Say, you&#039;re halfway through your chess game with Darth Vader, when suddenly he disappears, Scarlett Johansson is no longer sitting in your lap, and pizza costs money again. You&#039;d find the guy who turned off the machine and snap his damned neck. Dilbert creator Scott Adams jokingly points out in his book The Dilbert Future that the holodeck, &quot;will be society&#039;s last invention.&quot; It&#039;s no joke; once we had it, there&#039;d be no reason to have anything else.

It&#039;s not just that it would be addictive; it&#039;s that it would literally fill every possible human emotional need and utterly eliminate all motivation to ever do anything ever. Everyone&#039;s only goal would be to do just enough work to keep food and electricity coming into the holodeck, to keep those interruptions by reality to a minimum.

People would stop reproducing, your virtual Scarlett Johansson could have perfect virtual kids who&#039;ll never wind up in jail or steal money from you to buy crack. If you get tired of them, tell the holodeck to blink them out of existence. If you&#039;re saying that you&#039;re a high-minded person who pursues spiritual goals and would never be sucked in by anything as crude as a simulation, hey, they&#039;ve got a holodeck for you, too. You can sit down to dinner with Plato and Abe Lincoln and Gandhi and Jesus. If somebody yanked you out of that to go work at the post office all day, you&#039;d barricade yourself in with a shotgun.

If aliens showed up to Earth 1,000 years later, they&#039;d find an abandoned planet with ten billion mummified corpses laying on the floor of ten billion dusty holodecks, with huge smiles on their faces. &lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.cracked.com/article_15655_5-awesome-sci-fi-inventions-that-would-actually-suck.html" rel="nofollow">Imagine how you&#8217;ll react if you&#8217;re in your holodeck and somebody interrupts you. Say, you&#8217;re halfway through your chess game with Darth Vader, when suddenly he disappears, Scarlett Johansson is no longer sitting in your lap, and pizza costs money again. You&#8217;d find the guy who turned off the machine and snap his damned neck. Dilbert creator Scott Adams jokingly points out in his book The Dilbert Future that the holodeck, &#8220;will be society&#8217;s last invention.&#8221; It&#8217;s no joke; once we had it, there&#8217;d be no reason to have anything else.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s not just that it would be addictive; it&#8217;s that it would literally fill every possible human emotional need and utterly eliminate all motivation to ever do anything ever. Everyone&#8217;s only goal would be to do just enough work to keep food and electricity coming into the holodeck, to keep those interruptions by reality to a minimum.</p>
<p>People would stop reproducing, your virtual Scarlett Johansson could have perfect virtual kids who&#8217;ll never wind up in jail or steal money from you to buy crack. If you get tired of them, tell the holodeck to blink them out of existence. If you&#8217;re saying that you&#8217;re a high-minded person who pursues spiritual goals and would never be sucked in by anything as crude as a simulation, hey, they&#8217;ve got a holodeck for you, too. You can sit down to dinner with Plato and Abe Lincoln and Gandhi and Jesus. If somebody yanked you out of that to go work at the post office all day, you&#8217;d barricade yourself in with a shotgun.</p>
<p>If aliens showed up to Earth 1,000 years later, they&#8217;d find an abandoned planet with ten billion mummified corpses laying on the floor of ten billion dusty holodecks, with huge smiles on their faces. </a></p>
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		<title>By: Ian</title>
		<link>http://www.reclusland.com/compass/2009/01/23/surveilance-identity-and-meaning-part-3enlightened-by-all-things/comment-page-1/#comment-344</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jan 2009 02:22:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reclusland.com/compass/?p=783#comment-344</guid>
		<description>@ omnivateLLC:

I would be the last one to disagree with you on that.  However, I still sense a potential danger involved in the swapping of perceptual fields, and I feel I&#039;d be lax if I didn&#039;t point it out.  

Personally, if the technology was being worked on, I&#039;d sign up as a test subject immediately (sometimes I feel like I have already...)  because I understand that we are not really our thoughts and perceptions.  We are also the field in which they interact.  Of course, I think I understand that more intellectually than as an everyday experience, but I&#039;m working on that.  And I think technology like this would help me do that.

But with any technology, there is a good side and a bad side.  Maybe I&#039;m only acting the part of the overprotective parent.  Maybe the only thing that would need to be done here is give the person a warning, and then like anything else, give them a chance to try it for themselves.  But I think it&#039;s dangerous to at least not point out potential problems when they are noticed. 

I think that the continuance of some sense of I-AMness would have to be self-monitored, and prolonged swapping of perceptual fields, as well as quickly changing between multiple fields in one session, might be something to consider a sort of expert-level kind of thing.

So yeah, while I love the idea behind the technology, and I love the potential it offers, I just want to make sure I also keep a notation of any worries that pop-up during my explorations of these ideas.  Cause it might save a lot of trouble if something like this ever does manifest.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ omnivateLLC:</p>
<p>I would be the last one to disagree with you on that.  However, I still sense a potential danger involved in the swapping of perceptual fields, and I feel I&#8217;d be lax if I didn&#8217;t point it out.  </p>
<p>Personally, if the technology was being worked on, I&#8217;d sign up as a test subject immediately (sometimes I feel like I have already&#8230;)  because I understand that we are not really our thoughts and perceptions.  We are also the field in which they interact.  Of course, I think I understand that more intellectually than as an everyday experience, but I&#8217;m working on that.  And I think technology like this would help me do that.</p>
<p>But with any technology, there is a good side and a bad side.  Maybe I&#8217;m only acting the part of the overprotective parent.  Maybe the only thing that would need to be done here is give the person a warning, and then like anything else, give them a chance to try it for themselves.  But I think it&#8217;s dangerous to at least not point out potential problems when they are noticed. </p>
<p>I think that the continuance of some sense of I-AMness would have to be self-monitored, and prolonged swapping of perceptual fields, as well as quickly changing between multiple fields in one session, might be something to consider a sort of expert-level kind of thing.</p>
<p>So yeah, while I love the idea behind the technology, and I love the potential it offers, I just want to make sure I also keep a notation of any worries that pop-up during my explorations of these ideas.  Cause it might save a lot of trouble if something like this ever does manifest.</p>
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		<title>By: Ian</title>
		<link>http://www.reclusland.com/compass/2009/01/23/surveilance-identity-and-meaning-part-3enlightened-by-all-things/comment-page-1/#comment-343</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jan 2009 02:02:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reclusland.com/compass/?p=783#comment-343</guid>
		<description>@ Ted:
I just read your comments here (got caught up with some stuff earlier and never got here) and it&#039;s funny to see how close what you&#039;re saying lines up with my reply to your other comments on the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.reclusland.com/compass/2009/01/15/caffeine/comment-page-1/#comment-341&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;caffeine post&lt;/a&gt;.  I think we&#039;re very much in agreement.  I wrote something to speedbird (on part one of this series) about how surveillance/judgment done by machines with an algorithmic sense of right and wrong scares the hell out of me.  And if there&#039;s a human intelligence behind those machines, giving them legitimacy, well, that scares me ever more.  

But the idea of the Borg doesn&#039;t scare me as much, mainly because of the way I look at the situation.  Yes, a Borg type society where the weak are subsumed by the strong would be bad.  Very bad.  But as Tim has point out at his blog, the technological basis for this is pretty much already around.  I&#039;d like to explore paradigms here that allow for this technology to be used in a way that promotes Great Things For Everyone All Around.  Hence the fact that everything I write here usually has a positive spin or happy outcome to it.  That&#039;s what I&#039;m writing for, that&#039;s what I want to find.  

If more people are aware of ways that this kind of technology can be used for &quot;good&quot;, than when they see it being used negatively, to hurt them, they&#039;ll understand that other options are available.  Hope is lost if a weapon can only ever belong in the enemy&#039;s hands.

And to be honest, I&#039;m not sure if just blogging about it really helps much in the end.  But it&#039;s all I&#039;m capable of doing about the matter right now.  I want to examine these things as closely as I can, and find good positive paradigms to encase them in.  And if I ever get the sense that I should do more to bring one of these paradigms into being, well, I&#039;ll worry about it at that point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Ted:<br />
I just read your comments here (got caught up with some stuff earlier and never got here) and it&#8217;s funny to see how close what you&#8217;re saying lines up with my reply to your other comments on the <a href="http://www.reclusland.com/compass/2009/01/15/caffeine/comment-page-1/#comment-341" rel="nofollow">caffeine post</a>.  I think we&#8217;re very much in agreement.  I wrote something to speedbird (on part one of this series) about how surveillance/judgment done by machines with an algorithmic sense of right and wrong scares the hell out of me.  And if there&#8217;s a human intelligence behind those machines, giving them legitimacy, well, that scares me ever more.  </p>
<p>But the idea of the Borg doesn&#8217;t scare me as much, mainly because of the way I look at the situation.  Yes, a Borg type society where the weak are subsumed by the strong would be bad.  Very bad.  But as Tim has point out at his blog, the technological basis for this is pretty much already around.  I&#8217;d like to explore paradigms here that allow for this technology to be used in a way that promotes Great Things For Everyone All Around.  Hence the fact that everything I write here usually has a positive spin or happy outcome to it.  That&#8217;s what I&#8217;m writing for, that&#8217;s what I want to find.  </p>
<p>If more people are aware of ways that this kind of technology can be used for &#8220;good&#8221;, than when they see it being used negatively, to hurt them, they&#8217;ll understand that other options are available.  Hope is lost if a weapon can only ever belong in the enemy&#8217;s hands.</p>
<p>And to be honest, I&#8217;m not sure if just blogging about it really helps much in the end.  But it&#8217;s all I&#8217;m capable of doing about the matter right now.  I want to examine these things as closely as I can, and find good positive paradigms to encase them in.  And if I ever get the sense that I should do more to bring one of these paradigms into being, well, I&#8217;ll worry about it at that point.</p>
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		<title>By: omnivateLLC</title>
		<link>http://www.reclusland.com/compass/2009/01/23/surveilance-identity-and-meaning-part-3enlightened-by-all-things/comment-page-1/#comment-342</link>
		<dc:creator>omnivateLLC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jan 2009 20:59:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reclusland.com/compass/?p=783#comment-342</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;&quot;people lose their “self” and end up either insane or permanently stuck in a infantile state of mind.&quot;&lt;/em&gt;

Seems like many people are this way with or without technology...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>&#8220;people lose their “self” and end up either insane or permanently stuck in a infantile state of mind.&#8221;</em></p>
<p>Seems like many people are this way with or without technology&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Ted</title>
		<link>http://www.reclusland.com/compass/2009/01/23/surveilance-identity-and-meaning-part-3enlightened-by-all-things/comment-page-1/#comment-326</link>
		<dc:creator>Ted</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Jan 2009 23:14:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reclusland.com/compass/?p=783#comment-326</guid>
		<description>Ok Here is my response on an old blog I resurrected:

http://quietanarchist.blogspot.com/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ok Here is my response on an old blog I resurrected:</p>
<p><a href="http://quietanarchist.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">http://quietanarchist.blogspot.com/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Ted</title>
		<link>http://www.reclusland.com/compass/2009/01/23/surveilance-identity-and-meaning-part-3enlightened-by-all-things/comment-page-1/#comment-325</link>
		<dc:creator>Ted</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Jan 2009 21:52:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reclusland.com/compass/?p=783#comment-325</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m getting a blog up again to write about this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m getting a blog up again to write about this.</p>
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		<title>By: Ted</title>
		<link>http://www.reclusland.com/compass/2009/01/23/surveilance-identity-and-meaning-part-3enlightened-by-all-things/comment-page-1/#comment-319</link>
		<dc:creator>Ted</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Jan 2009 20:33:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reclusland.com/compass/?p=783#comment-319</guid>
		<description>Another thing I am thinking though is there may be a shift in the types of personalities attracted to the internet. As it becomes more ubiquitous and the less possibility there is for any privacy. 

I think either all these INTP&#039;s /enneagram 5&#039;s may either opt out, since it no longer offers anonymity, or they will ascend the scale to enneagram eight and be more in control and master their environment and by extension other people. 

And this is another aspect of this ego thing. The danger is that in a power struggle the weaker egos become subsumed by the stronger ones. 

That already happens already but we may see a clearer picture of how this works through this body swapping stuff. Peoples bodies and skills can be requisitioned to a more powerful ego or a group ego. 

That is the BORG.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another thing I am thinking though is there may be a shift in the types of personalities attracted to the internet. As it becomes more ubiquitous and the less possibility there is for any privacy. </p>
<p>I think either all these INTP&#8217;s /enneagram 5&#8217;s may either opt out, since it no longer offers anonymity, or they will ascend the scale to enneagram eight and be more in control and master their environment and by extension other people. </p>
<p>And this is another aspect of this ego thing. The danger is that in a power struggle the weaker egos become subsumed by the stronger ones. </p>
<p>That already happens already but we may see a clearer picture of how this works through this body swapping stuff. Peoples bodies and skills can be requisitioned to a more powerful ego or a group ego. </p>
<p>That is the BORG.</p>
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		<title>By: Ted</title>
		<link>http://www.reclusland.com/compass/2009/01/23/surveilance-identity-and-meaning-part-3enlightened-by-all-things/comment-page-1/#comment-318</link>
		<dc:creator>Ted</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Jan 2009 20:27:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reclusland.com/compass/?p=783#comment-318</guid>
		<description>The positive spin I see on reality manipulation through technology though is that maybe this is how we will &quot;ascend into the 5th dimension&quot; and be in direct contact with the pure posibility of the quantum feild, and be able to harness that creatively. 

You know like build a machine for manifesting your dreams into reality, ways of augmenting that process and tracking it. 

Have VR interacting with real time and creating a paradise. 

I am excited about this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The positive spin I see on reality manipulation through technology though is that maybe this is how we will &#8220;ascend into the 5th dimension&#8221; and be in direct contact with the pure posibility of the quantum feild, and be able to harness that creatively. </p>
<p>You know like build a machine for manifesting your dreams into reality, ways of augmenting that process and tracking it. </p>
<p>Have VR interacting with real time and creating a paradise. </p>
<p>I am excited about this.</p>
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		<title>By: Ted</title>
		<link>http://www.reclusland.com/compass/2009/01/23/surveilance-identity-and-meaning-part-3enlightened-by-all-things/comment-page-1/#comment-317</link>
		<dc:creator>Ted</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Jan 2009 20:23:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reclusland.com/compass/?p=783#comment-317</guid>
		<description>This science fiction author that is an MIT professor or something, Verner Vinge, predicted the singularity-I read a couple of his Hugo award winning books-He writes about civilizations that achieve &quot;ubiquitous law enforcement&quot; just before they self destruct. 

I think there is a lesson there. I mean your assumption for ubiquitous surveilence working out is in the context of a bunch of freindly people in a totally egalitarian setting. 

In terms of unequal power relationships, I see a lot of problems, you know like people being jailed for giving off &quot;violent vibes&quot; or dangerous MRI scans and thinking &quot;terroistic thoughts.&quot; 

Plus there is the whole shadow side of human nature, that is always there, that we aren&#039; t aware of. How we are like animals and can be predatory and dishonest and how this stuff is already worked into the system as a given, but people don&#039;t admit it.  This is the part of the tao that is hard to work out, how there is no good and evil. That tigers aren&#039;t evil for killing deer and that maybe an implication of that is that strong nations aren&#039;t evil for dominating weak ones. Maybe Powerful corporations aren&#039;t evil for putting other companies out of business. 

Trying to &quot;stamp out evil,&quot; &quot;correct human nature&quot; &quot;stop terrorism&quot; 

using ubiquitous surveilence will probably be a disaster.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This science fiction author that is an MIT professor or something, Verner Vinge, predicted the singularity-I read a couple of his Hugo award winning books-He writes about civilizations that achieve &#8220;ubiquitous law enforcement&#8221; just before they self destruct. </p>
<p>I think there is a lesson there. I mean your assumption for ubiquitous surveilence working out is in the context of a bunch of freindly people in a totally egalitarian setting. </p>
<p>In terms of unequal power relationships, I see a lot of problems, you know like people being jailed for giving off &#8220;violent vibes&#8221; or dangerous MRI scans and thinking &#8220;terroistic thoughts.&#8221; </p>
<p>Plus there is the whole shadow side of human nature, that is always there, that we aren&#8217; t aware of. How we are like animals and can be predatory and dishonest and how this stuff is already worked into the system as a given, but people don&#8217;t admit it.  This is the part of the tao that is hard to work out, how there is no good and evil. That tigers aren&#8217;t evil for killing deer and that maybe an implication of that is that strong nations aren&#8217;t evil for dominating weak ones. Maybe Powerful corporations aren&#8217;t evil for putting other companies out of business. </p>
<p>Trying to &#8220;stamp out evil,&#8221; &#8220;correct human nature&#8221; &#8220;stop terrorism&#8221; </p>
<p>using ubiquitous surveilence will probably be a disaster.</p>
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