What exactly is the drive to forget about the organization?

I’m going to write up something on this, cause I keep finding more and more links on this today. Stay tuned…

And yes, Ted, laziness is definitely a part of it, but laziness in itself is not really so bad. It’s more the willful choice and pursuit of laziness as an actual goal, rather than as a stop along the way. The Sabbath’s only one day of the week, so to speak…

> But the will to organize so that the organization can then be forgotten about, is evil.

This sounds right on the nail. Think I need time for that to sink in, if I’m understanding it correctly (can you elaborate)? It’s got me that deep down excited intuition feel going. What exactly is the drive to forget about the organization?

Anyway, just wanted to add that Drunvalo Maelchizedek’s take on this, as you explain it, seems pretty good to me. In that “good” is associated with the recognition that action must be constrained by “love” because action always takes place within reality.

And actually, is there any way of having “free will” if that “free will” is separate from the constraints of reality? The distinction there seems to be a sloppy one: “I’ll only accept the parts of reality that allow me to get/do what I want, but I willingly choose to ignore those that ‘stand in my way’”.

As if anyone had any true understanding of why they want what they want anyway…

Anyway, this:

There’s no real ‘inside’ and nothing ever actually goes in. In fact, everything that goes in comes out, just scrambled up a bit (OK, a lot).

is awesome. I had no idea, but it does make a lot of sense. As far as I know, nobody had any idea what was inside a blackhole, other than A PORTAL TO ANOTHER DIMENSION!!!!!!1!1!!!

The “media” of language….
Check this physorg article from today. I plan on doing a post about it at some point, but those lucky readers who dig into the comments can check it out first. Speedbird, I’m pretty sure it’ll blow your mind! ;)

Ted:
I think that evilness of the will of the organizer is dependent on the desire behind that will-to-organize. If the organization is for the betterment of everybody, an attempt to create improvements all around, then that will lead to good result.

But the will to organize so that the organization can then be forgotten about, is evil. I think that’s the “implosion” that Topper’s talking about, something similar to Freud’s Death-Drive, the desire for the ending of all stimulation of the senses (in the context of this discussion, this is accomplished by putting everything “in it’s place”)

I think the key is if the organizer understands that it is attached to the organization. If you see yourself as just a part of the organization, and that the health of the organization represents it’s ability to sustain you and everyone involved, then it’s not so bad.

But if you see yourself as apart from the organization, and that it’s a system you put into play only to benefit from it’s fruits (a more machine like way of looking at reality), then things can get pretty bad before you notice (or care)…

And really, the entire world is already an “organization” that works like this. The ego is the CEO that can’t see that it’s existence is dependent on the health and wellbeing of the reality around it.

Also, I finally read that Topper link you sent, and it seemed the key concepts are good, but that it’s kind of overly complicated. But I’m writing something up on that too, so I won’t say too much on that now.

Plus I am highly skeptical of anything associated with the Pleiades, since (I think) the Pleiades entered the New Age mindset from Laura Knight-Jadczyk. Or am I mixing up my crazy western gurus?

Anyway, I don’t really put much faith in channeled information (which is what LKJ gets from the Pleiades, I believe). Why knowingly let something else between yourself and reality, when all true knowledge comes from direct study of reality? Why do we need aliens to explain how our souls work? Sounds kind of lazy to me…

Anyway the idea of the Black hole is my analogy, not his.

But, the thing about “the will of the organizer” is how evil operates IMO. An analogy Micheal topper uses is that Creation is like a Mother having two children, one is fearful and the other is adventurous. The fearful one wants to hold the Mother Captive so she will never leave him. That is the Motivation behind evil.

Another theory is By this guy Drunvalo Maelchizedek that different beings want to create worlds with free will and to have free will ( in the sense they want) you can’t have love, because love constrans you to do certain things. The pattern of creation follows love so if you love you can’t avoid obeying God. So anyway though, God allows Lucifer (the latest in a serries of beings to attempt this) to try out his program. Because… whatever…

I am not so sold on that one.

But anyway, I think their is a certain flavor associated with evil. I think its a real thing that is in operation. You can say its ignorance, but I don’t think that is an adequate explanation. There is a difference between seriously dedicated really really strong willed ignorance like a massive program that is being undertaken, with eyes pretty much open and simply being mistaken about something. Its a type of polarization. In a way maybe they know its doomed to failure but its not the same as just being uneducated about something.

Black holes first; I’ll come to the whole starbucks-coffee-cup thing later. Current thinking as I understand it is that black holes ain’t so black. There’s no real ‘inside’ and nothing ever actually goes in. In fact, everything that goes in comes out, just scrambled up a bit (OK, a lot). Not sure if that has any deeper meaning tho.

Considering dark controlling things, not necessarily ‘evil’ per se; I think a lot of this is stuff we do to ourselves and which we have the power to undo (though the mechanism is obviously non-obvious… if you see what I mean).

The ‘use’ of things for good isn’t as simple as that; the ‘use’ of a medium is inherent in the medium. You can’t ‘use’ a medium differently; you have to reach in and change the medium. To do that you first have to see the beggar clearly, which is also a non-trivial task.

So anyway my take on this is that one of the great Media is this ability we have to collect stuff together and name it and organise it. Call it ‘language’. It allows us to make sense of the world. And it can reflect real structures in the Universe. But it can also get easily out of hand. Creating hierarchies can start to be an ego trip and reflect nothing but the will of the organiser. Too much sense can start to confuse. (There’s an ironical quip in engineering circles on these lines ‘standards are good, let’s have lots of them’.) And hierarchies start to look like onions where you can’t see the insides from the outsides and vice-versa. And somewhere in that massive onion of concepts are some true and good concepts that reflect the truth of the Universe. They’re scared silly and they need our help.

In a sense the opposite of evil is adventure. Losing oneself in the moment. Exploring… trying new things, creating new things… Evil wants to swallow all of creation into itself and go back to sleep. So the project to bring this about is to bring all of creation under centralized command and control. Only the being at the Apex is fully aware that this is for the purpose of creating a massive implosion. Lower level beings just think ts about power.

So anyway, you have this dynamic tension between good and evil, which is one of the polarities that creates reality. The force that wants to continually create and harmonize new types of diversity, vs. the force that wants to bring everything under central control.

But for the black hole being a metaphor for evil, I don’t know. I’ve been thinking of a black hole as a metaphor for an enlightened consciousness, that’s reached a level of “I-Am-ness” where the “I” has completely collapses in on itself, leaving only emptiness…

But then, evil is greedy, so maybe that works too. I haven’t ironed out all the details on that one yet! :)

You’ve caught me though, I haven’t had a chance to read it yet. My backlog of stuff to read (both online and in books) grows day by day…

For me, he pretty much clinched it. It started with creation and its the aspect of creation that wants to control things. Control the rest of creation. Its hierarchical control. There is a being at the Apex of this pyramid that is a tiny little point in space, that wants to control all of creation.

The opposite of this is kind of live and let live, seeking harmony with other beings while letting them be free.

(whether that’s through allowed by evolution or by “God’s Will” is not really a relevant difference here, and this is a trend I am betting will become more and more common…)

I can often come up with an example of how those same processes are just as useful for really good ends (be that compassion, or enlightenment or whatever) Can’t think of any examples of course. But we need more people using things for good ends, just to remind us all that it’s possible.

I tend to be a little blind to the problems inherent in “The Secret” type thinking, although I do readily agree that the problems are there! The thing is, The Secret people believe we’re all completely in control of what we think. Hence, “you can think yourself into a better life”, or whatever those people say.

But a long time ago, Buddha pointed out that that’s not true (and Freud reminded us again fairly recently, in a manner more friendly to the Western mind). The unconscious definitely has a lot to do with this, because although “The Secret” is a crock, we do still manage to get what we want sometimes, so perhaps there is some kind of “Secret” effect at work behind the scenes anyway…

I also agree that our unconscious is probably a lot more in touch with these kinds of quantum entanglement type things than we’re aware of, so perhaps a quantum computer would end up moving computers beyond the “thinking machine” stage. Or perhaps we just need to stop thinking that our conscious mind has all the answers!

Really, we’re blindingly fumbling around in the dark, with all this stuff, and I just wish more people could keep that in mind, both because it stops us from being overly stupid, and because it reminds us that there’s always a lot more to find out and make adjustments for…

But when it comes to these other “dark” (as in evil) kinds of forces, I’m hoping they end up contributing to this mass-enlightenment anyway, just without being aware that they’re doing it! ;)

(which is not to say that we still shouldn’t keep a close eye on things to make sure they don’t fuck it all up…)

Yeah, quite possibly! To be replaced by…?

> … a recent article on physorg …

Cool article, thanx. Indeed, there are very, very strange and unknown things going on here and it looks like these guys have just noticed another one. I like their ‘dead is dead’ line, like a kind of biological extinction. It may indeed be that there’s something fundamental putting a limit on the capabilities of quantum computing, but no-one really knows what it is yet.

> what causes it to begin with? My bet is consciousness, observation.

But what constitutes consciousness & observation? Theory says that this stuff is going on whether or not there are humans to do the observing… what’s that telling us about the universe?

> is exactly how we tie ourselves up with all sorts of other slices

Probably. But I think there’s also an opening here to ‘The Secret’-type-thinking, so caveat emptor.

> what does that say about the potential of the human brain?

I reckon that a lot of ‘unconscious’ thought, where ideas come from, is of this type. Computers are indeed ‘thinking’ machines… but they’ve got a hollow core inside them. They have no (or fairly limited) unconscious.

> If it’s not worldwide enlightenment, I’ll be very surprised.

Yes, but there are quite definitely forces in the world that oppose this, and with which we trifle at our peril.

The next tentative link in the chain is that the brain might also rely on non-local entanglement and coherent computation and, in effect, be a quantum computer.

Yeah! This is something I’ve been thinking about too. That all this AI, quantum technology, all the IT stuff, is just our way of building a model of the brain, in a sort of unconscious attempt to understand it. It’s a case of psychological projection, we’re projecting what’s inside of us out onto technology…

Oh, and with conversations like this, you guys can take up all the bandwidth you want! However, if the “real” Speedbird wanted to set up a blog, I’d be one of the first to set it up on my RSS reader. ;)

As for quantum computing, I’m not sure how to take this, but a recent article on physorg seemed to throw a wrench into the works… Check this out and let me know what you think: http://www.physorg.com/news152899335.html

If I’m understanding it correctly, it means that entanglement doesn’t last as long as we thought it did, that it’s kind of a temporary thing that can’t be regained once it’s lost. If that’s the case, then what causes it to begin with? My bet is consciousness, observation. The same thing that collapses waves functions down into specific particles is also what entangles those particles together.

This is probably how emotions AND memories work too. Maybe I’m getting ahead of myself here, but I’m trying to cast out a wide net…

Throw quantum entanglement in the mix and it starts to look like we’re tied up with all sorts of other slices as well. The ‘particles’ of quantum theory really can be in several places at once; they ain’t ‘particles’ any more, they’re very definitely extended in space.

Exactly what I’m talking about, quantum entanglement, if it’s something that can just fade away, is exactly how we tie ourselves up with all sorts of other slices!

Also, if the brain is a quantum computer, and quantum computers can solve whole problems all at once, what does that say about the potential of the human brain? Maybe “solving the problem all at once” is what we’ve called “downloading information” in the past (here and on Tim’s site)… I know my ideas seem to come to me all at once, and I only have to break them down into language in order to properly understand/communicate them.

Might be a kind of worldwide enlightenment. Might be a hell of enforced servitude.

If it’s not worldwide enlightenment, I’ll be very surprised. :)

I follow you.