June 16, 2010
- Snakeskin: A Sesshin Story -
So, here’s one attempt at capturing a moment from my sesshin session last week.
During a sesshin (in the Mountains and Rivers Order, at least), the resident teachers or senior students will give a talk each day, around mid-afternoon, between lunch and dinner, in the middle of the day’s longest period of meditation. At the most recent sesshin I attended, Ryushin Sensei, Abbot of the monastery, gave two linked talks, both about the first Chinese Zen master, Boddhidharma’s student Hui K’o. For those unfamiliar with Zen lore, Hui K’o was reputed to have studied all the different traditions of his time and still felt his understanding was incomplete. Then, in a dream, he was told to go to Shaolin (yes, that Shaolin) in search of a teacher who had come from India to spread “Chan” (the Chinese name for Zen). He came to the temple at Shaolin and found Bodhidharma seated in meditation, facing a wall. He asked to be taught by Bodhidharma and was completely ignored.
Undaunted, he stood outside in the snow all night, refusing to be turned away. The next morning when Bodhidharma saw him still standing in the cold, he asked Hui K’o what he wanted. Again, Hui K’o asked to be taught, and again Bodhidharma turned him away. So Hui K’o took out a sharp sword, cut of his left arm, and presented it to Bodhidharma as an offering of his sincerity. Bodhidharma, as Ryushin put it, shrugged, and said “I guess you’ll do…”
Although a harsh story, one has to keep in mind that this is a bit of a legend, and as such, should be taken as being “more true than it is real”, in a Joseph Campbell kind of way. Hui K’o, it was later pointed out, would become Bodhidharma’s only enlightened heir. Towards the end of his life, he gave up teaching at Shaolin entirely and retired in anonymity to a nearby city, where he taught and worked as a toilet cleaner. Supposedly, he loved cleaning toilets. Later, he ran afoul of a more prominent teacher on the local scene, and was ordered to be put to death, to which he went calmly. (Night)shades of Socrates…..
In any case, the point at hand was how we cling to things, to ideas, self-images, and how acting as if these things are really our self is what makes us suffer. An example was given of an (unnamed) student who had lost their black-berry, and how the loss of that black-berry caused so much stress because of how much identity had been placed into it. This was not meant as a condemnation, more as an example of the way the mind works.
And yet, even if, like Hui K’o we were to lose something much more intimately connected to us, like an arm, we continue on, still a whole being, while the arm lays there, dripping blood on the carpet, yet clearly not a part of us any more. How much less should a blackberry or a self-concept be clung to as a form of identity, when we can clearly let it go much more easily than we can an arm, and still remain what we are: a complete being.
Also up for discussion in a different talk (given by Shugen Sensei of the Temple here in Brooklyn) were some writings of Dogen’s, where he says to “sit in zazen, and when a self-concept arises, enter into it, with eyes sharp and ears sharp.” This interested me, as the basic instructions we receive in Zazen are to focus on the breath, and, when a thought rises, to see it and let it go, bringing our focus back on the breath. This something I’ve been struggling with for a few years, despite my feeling of having been helped immensely by my practice, I’m still not quite sure I’m doing it right.
Dogen’s advice seemed to imply a deeper level for me in the practice. I am not just a self watching my thoughts arise, I am an awareness, watching for self-concepts to arise/solidify. Entering into them with/as awareness, “eyes sharp and ears sharp”, I watch them, investigate what they are, and then, low-and-behold, they simply fade away. This felt much more effective to me than simply watching the thoughts arise and pass away (which so far has felt more like flipping the channel but remaining parked in front of the TV).
So, having come to this conclusion from the talk, I wanted to immediately sit and begin put my insight-into-practice into practice. But no, sadly, after the talks, we go for walking meditation outside, up and down the mountain. After all the sitting, its a great way to get the blood flowing again, so I didn’t in any way begrudge it. But the whole time spent walking, Ryushin’s talk and the investigation of the self-concepts turned around in my mind.
Then, coming down from the mountain, back to the monastery, we were walking through the parking area when I looked down and saw a snakeskin on the ground. And it hit me. All ideas of self, all concepts we hold on to about who we are, are really just sensations that have arisen inside of us, in response to something that was occurring in the moment. We have taken these things to be “what we are” when they are really just a form that “what we are” has taken on in response to the moment. Like a snake, we need to let these self concepts pull away, or else we will constatly be snagging them on things as we go along. This causes suffering, and we were better off just letting them go and moving on. Nothing to hold on to here folks, move along….
Or to be a bit more pithy about it, it’s the skin that gets stuck, not the snake.
So, big insight there. Very happily I bring it back into the zendo to sit, and it slowly begins to occur to me that a large part of my self-concept is that of “someone with a spiritual practice”, “someone who wants to be enlightened”. And has been pointed out to me on tumblr “By definition you can’t get what you want.” Because in order to want something, you must necessarily be defining yourself as someone who doesn’t have it. A self definition you clearly must give up, if you ever want to experience having anything.
Anyway, we could argue semantics about that little insight for weeks, I’m sure, but that’s what struck me, and it’s really made me re-examine my practice and my motives behind it (an ongoing theme for me, it seems).
At the end of a sesshin, back in the old days, you would have something called Sozan, where you would go before your teacher and present a summary of your experience over that sesshin. Maizumi Roshi, the teacher of Daido Roshi (Daido Roshi being the founder of the MRO), changed that when he started holding sesshins in LA. It became “Open Sozan” where, during a period of meditation, anyone in the group could speak out about their experience, sharing with their fellow practitioners. Which is nice, because this is the first time the silence is lifted the entire week, outside of speaking with the teacher during face-to-face dokusan during meditation.
So, during open Sozan, I told my little story of the snakeskin, not in so many words as I have here, more a quickly spouted, rather emotional bit a speech. I was happy with how it turned out then, and I’m pretty happy with how its turned out here as well. And with that, this sesshin story is pretty much over.
Oh, except for one last thing. Later that morning, after Open Sozan, I went out to the parking area to check on the snakeskin. It took me a while to find it again, but when I did, I was surprised to find out that it wasn’t a snakeskin after all. It was, in fact, an entire snake…
>> … a large part of my self-concept is that of “someone with a spiritual practice”, “someone who wants to be enlightened”. And has been pointed out to me on tumblr “By definition you can’t get what you want.” Because in order to want something, you must necessarily be defining yourself as someone who doesn’t have it. A self definition you clearly must give up, if you ever want to experience having anything.
Well that’s pretty cool.
Comment by speedbird — June 16, 2010 @ 9:16 am
Thanks. Its actually put quite a crimp in my practice lately. I was clinging to meditation (and spirituality in general) as a way of creating a better self-image. Its like saying “I’m a really great person, because I am so modest”. It might indeed make you feel good, but only as long as you can ignore the inconsistency.
In any case, I’ve been feeling rather depressed, having to face the self-image I was using the practices to hide from, and feeling kind of helpless because my solution turned out not to be a solution after all.
But hey, if I’m going to be serious about this stuff, I can’t ignore inconsistencies. Gotta get rid of the whole snake, not just the dead icky parts.
As I was reminded by tumblr this morning:
“Everything in life that we really accept undergoes a change. So suffering must become love. That is the mystery.”
Comment by Ian — June 16, 2010 @ 12:27 pm
Nice work. Though I don’t see how your “solution turned out not to be a solution after all.” From what I can see, your story followed a natural course: you have an insight, great! then you look into it further and find there is more to see. It sounds like application of “sharp eyes.” Shed the skin of the first insight and get to the meat of it!
Keep up the good work and you’ll see through; the depression will fade like it always does. (I am saying this to myself as well)
By the way, just yesterday I was reviewing this
Comment by Donn — June 16, 2010 @ 2:03 pm
I guess I can relate directly with my own /musical/ practice. You start with ‘I want to be a good player’ and it ties you in knots. At some point you just have to jump in and play…
Comment by speedbird — June 16, 2010 @ 2:05 pm
Oh man, Donn, at the end of that video, when they show the snake crawl to the end of the stick, then dip down and fling itself into the air, that is IT right there! I loved it. Thanks for sharing!
Which, I think, is exactly what you mean, speedbird, by “jump in and play.”
Really good to hear from both you guys on this, thank you.
And also, by my “solution turned out not to be a solution after all”, I just want to clarify that I meant that my solution (to having a poor self-image) was to become a great person by being spiritual, trying to build up my self-image with the practice.
But that’s painting over rotten wood, and in a sense, that kind of practice will only reinforce the negative self-image because it takes that negative self-image as its starting point. Instead, I should focus on seeing through that negative self image and letting it arise and pass away. Needing to face that negative self-image without hiding behind my sense of “I am a spiritual person!” seems to have been the cause of both my depression and my lack of drive to practice.
Though we’ll see tomorrow morning whether this is true, or just my “wiseacring”, as Gurdjieff would call it.
As someone said to me recently, life is both an utterly ruthless and totally compassionate teacher.
Comment by Ian — June 16, 2010 @ 2:23 pm
Ian, thanks for clarifying that, I see what you mean. In a related vein, I think it is alright to be aware of how you probably are a better person not because you practice, but what comes out of that practice. There is no self-image about this because the fruit of this work shows itself in the world, not in the image of our self. Just a quack theory :) , but it might allow us to determine personal improvement without developing self-image.
Comment by Donn — June 16, 2010 @ 4:16 pm
Wow, thanks for this. A couple of things (sorry for doing this every time, I can stop :-)).
But that’s painting over rotten wood, and in a sense, that kind of practice will only reinforce the negative self-image because it takes that negative self-image as its starting point. Instead, I should focus on seeing through that negative self image and letting it arise and pass away. Needing to face that negative self-image without hiding behind my sense of “I am a spiritual person!” seems to have been the cause of both my depression and my lack of drive to practice.
Hmmm, there is this problem between working on seeing the nature of the present moment (insight) and working on being a good person, they are not the same and they do not necessarily coincide. If your moment-to-moment experience includes sensations of being a spiritual person or suffering related to it then by all means pay attention to it, as these sensations are momentary, do not satisfy and are not you. Otherwise its just a philosophical/morality exercise, which can help you be a better person (which is great). There is this wonderful quote from MCTB where Daniel Ingram writes that around the Dark Night a yogi can become fascinated with his self-identification as a holy and spiritual basket case. Its pretty natural imho. BTW what you describe sounds as pretty usual Dark Night stuff (there would also be a mugginess/impreciseness of sorts in relation to your awareness and a certain difficulty at being one-pointed in your focus). Have you tried widening your focus in meditation? (paying attention more widely and inclusively)
If you want to investigate suffering heavily (its surprisingly fun and you are doing it already), you can also pay special attention to aversion, attraction and confusion as it arises/passes moment-to-moment. Also observing the sense of suffering itself and realizing that it is a separate phenomenon from the preceding sensations can be rather enlightening.
As for wanting to be enlightened, I used to say my intention to become enlightened at the beginning of each sit, it did not hinder my progress in the slightest, perhaps it made it clear that this intention was actually real, fine and achievable (you have to give yourself permission to do this stuff and then it just happens).
Dogen’s advice seemed to imply a deeper level for me in the practice. I am not just a self watching my thoughts arise, I am an awareness, watching for self-concepts to arise/solidify. Entering into them with/as awareness, “eyes sharp and ears sharp”, I watch them, investigate what they are, and then, low-and-behold, they simply fade away. This felt much more effective to me than simply watching the thoughts arise and pass away (which so far has felt more like flipping the channel but remaining parked in front of the TV).
Could you elaborate on the distinction, it sounds interesting but I do not quite know what you mean. Also, the sense of awareness/watchfulness is observable in the same way that everything else is, it is as impermanent/not you/unsatisfactory as any other part of your sensate experience (this is very helpful in unearthing the no-self characteristic). You can also try to ask yourself who am I? and observe where your attention goes (where the sense of self resides) and keep with it, using the question as an anchor whenever you wander.
So, having come to this conclusion from the talk, I wanted to immediately sit and begin put my insight-into-practice into practice. But no, sadly, after the talks, we go for walking meditation outside, up and down the mountain. After all the sitting, its a great way to get the blood flowing again, so I didn’t in any way begrudge it. But the whole time spent walking, Ryushin’s talk and the investigation of the self-concepts turned around in my mind.
There is always time to be mindful/aware – you do not have to be sitting or formally practicing. After a certain point meditation/mindfulness should be a very easy and natural mode of operation (its lovely to pay attention and not to be asleep, even if its only now and then), as for technique, simply being aware works, or while walking paying attention to the movement of feet and contact with the ground.
I remember this interview with Shinzen Young where he talks about being taken for a brain scan for a psychology study where the scientist comes up to him, puts the electrodes on his head and asks him not to start meditating just yet, to which Shinzen Young replies that he doesnt know how to stop.
Hope some/any of this is of use. All the luck and fun for your practice and your life, its a pleasure to read about it here.
Comment by Pavel — June 16, 2010 @ 7:42 pm
Oh, one other thing. Another indicator for the Dark Night is a propensity to a certain kind of negativity – in my case its (sometimes acute) anxiety, aversion, wish for seclusion and self-judgment. I believe that the flavour may be different for different people but its always been the same for me in every Dark Night I have been in. The pattern becomes obvious with time (and the negativity more bearable/less believable/although still just as if not more intense). If you are in the Dark Night there is no other cure than practice (becoming a better person does not solve the fundamental crisis and the lack of clarity makes it rather hard to do well on becoming a better person and realizing the shadow side of what you may be doing). You know that you are out (ie. in equanimity) when none of the sensations/experiences change but the level of suffering drastically drops and your attention becomes wider (kind of 180 degrees) with focus becoming much clearer and your ability to perceive sensations quickly and accurately much enhanced.
Once again all the best.
Comment by Pavel — June 16, 2010 @ 7:50 pm
@ Donn:
Thanks, you’re helping me clarify this more and more.
I guess what it comes down to is that I can practice all I want to, but it’s never going to cover up or push away negativity. Covering up or pushing away is simply avoidance, and is the exact opposite of practice. So while the fruit of the work can lead to personal improvement, it won’t help us ignore the bad stuff we carry around. That goes against the very nature of practice!
As Kenneth Folk has said, its best to be enlightened in heaven and in hell.
Comment by Ian — June 17, 2010 @ 3:46 pm
@ Pavel:
Well that’s a shit-ton of advice that is. :)
I appreciate the massive feedback, I’ll try to reply point by point.
The first point though, I find myself in kind of disagreement with. Though I know Dan Ingram and Kenneth Folk and this new wave of Western Vipassana that’s sweeping our little corner of the internets is very big on separating insight and morality, there’s something about the way I understand this that makes me think there might be a better way to talk about this…
I agree that they’re not exactly the same thing, and I would also say that working on morality too much seems to get me caught up in self improvement, thereby rejecting the present moment in the hopes of finding a better version of “me” first. Obviously creating a massive roadblock for true insight.
However, as I just sort of discovered when replying to Donn, hoping that practice is going to push away negativity is also misplaced. And so seeing negativity is there, we can either choose to live with it (hard to do when burdened with decades of catholic guilt, and probably not a good habit to get into in any case) or we can turn our insight inwards to the roots of this negativity. To me, it feels like a natural progression of my insight practice to turn it on the parts of me that seem to be suffering the most (focus on the suffering, as you say). But I also don’t want to sit and stare at ways I am hurting myself and others and do nothing about them because they’re fuel for my insight fire. (I don’t mean to imply that your saying I should do this, just that this is how I see my options on the matter).
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Difficulty with one pointed focusedness would explain my trouble with Zazen (as the goal seems to be one-pointedness first, insight afterwords)
I have tried widening my focus of attention, and it works but not reliably. I have had more reliable success lately just turning my attention inwards and just seeing what is there. A sense of release from planning and submission to what is already going on seems to be important to my practice right now.
I had the insight recently that there is always something already going on whenever I turn my attention somewhere. Nothing ever truly “starts” and so its best to “just don’t know” and see what is there.
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Wanting to be enlightened is not a bad thing I think, but wanting to be enlightened in order to avoid your shit is a bad thing. I’ve stopped using twitter lately, but one of my last “tweets” was a quote from a hiphop song “If your shit don’t stink, your shit won’t sink” which I took to mean if you don’t notice the bad stuff, it’ll just stick around. Best to rub your face right in it and learn to let it pass away.
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Elaborate on the distinction I made? Well, at the time, it seemed quite clear, but since then the edges have gotten muddy. If I polarize it a bit, I would say what I was doing before was realizing that I had a thought, watching it exist (which is very very similar to noting practice, though without engaging the linguistic parts of the brain) and then watching it no longer be there. Then going back to the breath. So it was like watching a TV show, waiting for the show to go to commercial, and then turning my attention elsewhere until the show came back on.
Alternatively, to describe the “investigate the self-concept with sharp eyes/ears” idea, it would be like going one step down from there. Instead of watching for thoughts, I would watch for a sense of “I am this distinct thing, or this set of feelings, or this plan for dealing with life” and then, as once I notice that sense of “I am this distinct thing” becoming present, I’d watch that until it fell apart. I wasn’t able to maintain this level of focus for long though, and I haven’t been able to work up to it much since, but it did feel more powerful than simply “catching myself thinking”.
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This, I am very much aware of and it is something I do try to keep up at all times. However, there is a way in which attempting to maintain mindfulness stops me from being full engaged in what I’m doing (durinng conversations especially). So I have to work to find a balance there.
And at the same time, this kind of mindfulness cannot be held to the same level as the focus and insight available during actual practice (be that sitting, standing, lying, or walking). But of course, I’m sure you’re as aware of that as I am, right? :)
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And as for the Dark Night, yeah, I’m PRETTY damn sure I am in the midst of it. I wasn’t sure previously because I had also been under a lot of stress/anxiety before I had what I’ve now come to realize was my A&P event, and a lot of that stress/anxiety was relieved by that event. I was left unsure as to whether it might have been stream entry, but no, its become pretty clear that it wasn’t.
I do find all of this helpful, though its a lot to respond to a try to keep in mind.
In any case I’ve got 1 or 2 more sesshin stories I could post, when i have a good amount of time.
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Also, I have to go meet a friend after work so I didn’t get a chance to read this comment over before posting. So my apologies for any major typos or bad thinking! :)
Comment by Ian — June 17, 2010 @ 4:39 pm
I love every single thing that you wrote, it seems that as usual I misunderstood some of the things that you were writing about in your sesshin story.
But I also don’t want to sit and stare at ways I am hurting myself and others and do nothing about them because they’re fuel for my insight fire. (I don’t mean to imply that your saying I should do this, just that this is how I see my options on the matter).
Yeah, it is a very hard balancing act (there seems to be no limit to how much a human being, well-intentioned or not, can fuck up). Luckily, insight gradually as well as with each stage of enlightenment gives adequate clarity to make this process somehow easier (although not more pleasant, as in things dont change much but certain proclivities do and clarity increases). Its like they say – you cant drain the marsh; but insight seems to make the marsh smaller and puts up lamps every here and there to make it easier to travel through it.
I have tried widening my focus of attention, and it works but not reliably. I have had more reliable success lately just turning my attention inwards and just seeing what is there. A sense of release from planning and submission to what is already going on seems to be important to my practice right now.
I had the insight recently that there is always something already going on whenever I turn my attention somewhere. Nothing ever truly “starts” and so its best to “just don’t know” and see what is there.
Thats awesome.
And at the same time, this kind of mindfulness cannot be held to the same level as the focus and insight available during actual practice (be that sitting, standing, lying, or walking). But of course, I’m sure you’re as aware of that as I am, right? :)
Yeah, the concentration levels are very different, true, but weirdly enough very little concentration seems to be necessary for making progress, ie. it is possible to go through the stages and get a path without the high-power concentration that retreats produce. I have never been to a retreat and my concentration was puny in comparison to some heavy meditators whose progress I read about in the forums. Some other people I know are/have made progress without having hardcore concentration either. There seems to be a disagreement between people who put a lot of weight on retreats and strong concentration against people who managed more through daily practice (people always give advice according to what worked for them, which highlights this weird discrepancy in approaches/beliefs and general guidelines on progress). Also, I think that it becomes easier to practice in daily life from stream entry onwards.
And yeah, being mindful in conversations is impossible (for me) and a little weird and disconcerting for the other party as they are not really getting in rapport with me (which is a missing out on my part too). I have been extremely socially inept for about a year because of my practice (with short bursts of exactly the opposite in A&P territory). I am sure that you are figuring out a much better way :-)
Could you elaborate on your A&P event? I am fascinated by how this unfolds with different people. As for the difference between A&P and finishing a path, A&P is kind of a big thing, whereas end of path is kind of the opposite – a release, a dropping of things, an anti-climax of sorts (but still very pleasant, freeing and noticable – although I doubted for a long time that I ever finished a path). Also, your concentration will be insanely strong afterwards (spontaneous jhana/concentration states) and fruitions will (probably) repeat (although this may be hard to see). There would also be a review phase (quicker cycling with all of the stages being a lot less of a deal than they were when you went first through them), unless you chose to practice heavily from getting a path onwards.
Wonderful talking to you, all the best.
Comment by Pavel — June 17, 2010 @ 5:40 pm
Can’t you? That’s not the point on insight, granted, but I don’t think it necessarily follows that the marsh in undrainable. Or at least, it doesn’t necessarily follow that we shouldn’t make every attempt to drain it.
This is an excellent point, and I think, a potential problem to be overcome when working with any teacher, as well as for people who end up becoming teachers themselves. I think perhaps an attempt to get around this problem may be part of what causes that whole “mushroom factor” thing. Dunno if that’s necessarily true, but it makes sense…
Which says a lot, I think, about how conversation works, and what it is that we’re doing with insight practice. Perhaps “clinging” and “joining” need to be differentiated, and clinging is only when we get stuck when were joined to something…?
Yeah, I doubt it. :)
The manic/depressive qualities of the A&P / Dark Night are very much something I am learning about.
It was during a sesshin last July, but I really don’t want to go into describing it here. I’ve tried talking about it with a few people, but the more I try to put it into words, the less real the description seems. Definitely more along the lines of a “kensho” moment than anything Kundalini related though.
Well, awesome that you’ve finished a path, congrats! Would love to hear a little more about your experiences as well (on your blog or wherever!). Are you mainly on Daniel’s forums or Kenneth’s?
As for the advice, I do appreciate it, but I have read Daniels book, so I am familiar with the patterns and what’s “supposed to” happen next. Honestly, I’m really trying to avoid thinking about it, as I don’t want to get stuck in ideas of whats supposed to happen. It’ll happen as it does, I’m not going to worry about it. :)
Comment by Ian — June 18, 2010 @ 11:12 am
The marsh is in relation to psychological development (I believe that its one of Freuds), but I guess that it could apply to insight too, even though its not how I meant it. As in, psychological development becomes easier with the clarity and equanimity received through insight practice.
Congratulations on your kensho experience! – I wonder, is kensho a different name for an A&P, as in do the two traditions differentiate between the two further?
I generally visit/write on Dharma Overground, I dont hang out in Kenneths much. Yeah, I actually doubted that I even had a path until about 3 weeks ago but I am certain now that I landed third path last week, what a surprise that was (relief too). I dont really plan to write about it much because there is very little to say apart from a description of what got me there (much less than I expected apart from a certain single-mindedness and obsessiveness). I have been noticing a certain proclivity towards wanting to share/tell/impress but its really hard to do, as the descriptions I can give do not make any sense unless someone can see what I see (I suspect that this would be the reason for your unwillingness to write about your kensho experience). Whereas the previous paths were kind of a jump up in some ways (understanding of 3 characteristics, concentration, equanimity, instinctively knowing what to do) and mostly dropping off of things, third path is more like opening your eyes after a life of being colourblind and suddenly having the ability to see colours. In a way its been the first time that I really really received a return on my investment.
All the best.
Comment by Pavel — June 18, 2010 @ 3:35 pm
>> By definition you can’t get what you want.
It occurs to me that this is the exact opposite of the philosophy espoused by such television spectacles as ‘The X Factor’, in which the winner is always made out to be the person who wants it most.
Comment by speedbird — June 19, 2010 @ 3:09 am
Mindfulness in conversation is a funny thing, and I’m in line with you all in not having much success with it. There will be times in conversation when I’ll say to myself “I should be more mindful” only to find out that in saying that I’ve missed what the other person said! I can’t say that I have a solution, but I have noticed that it takes a different kind of listening than applying mindfulness internally.
Often for me, mindfulness is a reflective action where I try to be aware of the details and depth of some thing. For instance, before eating I try to reflect on all of the elements, people and stages that brought the food to my table, acknowledging each as important. It’s a good exercise I picked up from a Thich Nhat Hahn book* with benefits I’ll leave to you to discover. In conversation, however, if I get too deep into reflection then the internal action takes away from the shared act of conversation.
There is also a certain type of listening that isn’t helpful for me in conversation. If I listen like I do when sitting, then everything goes down that bottomless well and the other person gets to look at my unresponsive, expressionless face. What a treat! Of course, some type of listening is absolutely necessary.
My idea is that there is a certain depth of mindfulness and listening that we must allow in order to genuinely participate in a conversation, a depth which will vary from conversation to conversation, person to person. Too deep or too shallow doesn’t further. There is also some benefit in talking slowly, allowing a moment of reflection and a moment of reply. Slowness does not seem to be an inherent quality of contemporary conversation style. Quickness seems over-valued and misunderstood as a sign of intelligence.
Lately I’ve tried to be especially aware (or “mindful”) of my emotional and intellectual responses to what has been said to me–a brief moment of reflection. But, I’ve also made a pre-emptive decision to respond with generosity and positivity. This has been quite effective recently in pre-determining qualities of the outcome. No matter what comes at me, these are default qualities to which I must adhere. My job can be quite confrontational, and it is amazing how this disarms both my ego and the other person’s. Instead of an expressionless face, we are each wearing a bit of astonishment (and relief).
Ian, in having to think about all this, I’m curious about how “Open Sozan” works as a form of conversation. The zendo in my area has done a few “Dialogue” retreats which sounds similar. I enjoyed the short one I attended, though it can open the door to some bullshit. Oops! Positivity ;)
*either “Cultivating the Mind of Love” or “No Death, No Fear”
Comment by Donn — June 19, 2010 @ 7:52 am
@ Pavel:
Sorry, i realize my marsh comment was vague. I guess I was thinking about the idea that just because our “stuff” is endless and doesn’t lead to insight, this doesn’t mean it should be ignored. But I think this is partially an excuse for shoddy meditation and partially something I need to remind myself of right now (don’t give up everything for insight!).
So third path? I guess a little more than my previous congratulations are in order! I am happy to hear it, and very glad for you. I found your post on DhO, thought you summed it all up rather nicely, despite you thinking your descriptions might not make sense. I appreciate your words there, especially the part of about approaching this in a gung-ho kind of way not being suitable for more introspective personalities. I can definitely identify with that!
As for “kensho”, in zen its kind of the equivalent of “naive enlightenment,” I think. The teacher I spoke to after the experience said something along the lines of “don’t reach out to grab a pole when the rollercoaster has just started”. Which has proven invaluable advice in the long run. He didn’t mention whether this would be considered a “kensho” moment or not, so I don’t claim that it was. It was more like a dropping away of something that left me with the feeling of being only radiating awareness. That’s probably the best description I can come up with. The old John Lennon song “we all shine on” (instant karma) makes a lot more sense to me now, in any case.
I like your description of the paths as well. Hope to meet you there someday!
The share/tell/impress aspect worries me a bit. I am worried of this being an attempt to impress, which is not what my intent is. I am more going for a public record kind of “for the sake of all sentient beings” sort of thing. But yeah, definitely not easy.
In any case, your comment has been quite a kick in the ass. Got me started on my morning practice again, which I find helps me so much in the moment-to-moment mindfulness. I can’t seem to pull of the one without the other very well. And the effects of a morning practice on my moment-to-moment mood is pretty intense as well!
Thanks again for sharing, I do greatly appreciate it.
Comment by Ian — June 21, 2010 @ 3:30 pm
@ speedbird:
Well, I suppose both are true, in a way. It’s not that hard to stop wanting to be the winner once you’ve won.
Comment by Ian — June 21, 2010 @ 3:33 pm
@ Donn:
I hear you on this, something I am quite familiar with! What a treat indeed, doesn’t work at all. I agree that there’s a different kind of listening needed, a way of synching up with the other person perhaps…
I like that brief pause before speaking and the pre-determination to respond with compassion. I’ll have to try that out myself. I am often on the receiving end of some confrontations…
Comment by Ian — June 21, 2010 @ 3:46 pm
Oh, and @Pavel:
How did you get from not certain of having any path to being certain of third path? What happened to change your mind (no pun intended) on where you were at?
Comment by Ian — June 21, 2010 @ 4:16 pm
The report I wrote on DHO was after I got second path. Even back then I was unsure whether it was even first path, I was more or less of three minds there, either I was second path, or first path, or no path at all. The reason for the doubt was that there was no one to tell me whether any one of those three was right, as well as the fact that I was as much (if not more) of a nutcase than before. I was still going through intense periods of mania (A&P), depression/anxiety/doubt (Dark Night) and complete serenity (equanimity). Feeling like a nutcase did not grant me the confidence to believe that I was even lightly enlightened (I still cringe a bit whenever I think of the fact that I am).
I seriously considered the possibility after being told by an enlightened dude that my experiences, as well as my experiential understanding of the three characteristics coincided with the stages of enlightenment, as in, that I was probably first-second path. Shortly after I made third path, started seeing emptiness in real time, spent a couple of days in what I though was possibly enlightenment /it wasnt/ (seeing emptiness/wholeness/love/fullness in everything I looked at, being experientially aware that all things were of the same nature, of the same stuff and perfect, just fine as they were). All in all, still a nutcase (although a very well-meaning one most of the time), having the worst Dark Night I have ever had (the intensity is off the scale), intensely wishing for it to be over and yet not completely worried about it all, knowing that practice will get me there. Also knowing that it is sooo worth it, really worth it. I just wish that I knew how to make the whole process less painful and that I got myself a teacher earlier on.
So to answer your question, what changed my mind was an investigation of the doubt (a very common feature of my thinking) that was confusing the perception of my progress. When I look back, my experience fits all the common criteria, but I doubted that someone like me, someone with so little experience and in such a short practice period could make so much progress. I guess I was also hoping to see myself turn into a super being of some sort which never happened (thank God), I never expected to gauge my progress in terms of the things that were suddenly missing instead of the things that were added. I also never practiced concentration so my experience of the jhanas does not coincide with what most Theravada practitioners would expect of someone with my attainments, I only ever felt like I had strong concentration after getting a path (after third path I had to spend a number of days learning how not to solidify any object I would take as focus, it took about a second for me to enter jhana and it felt like I had no control over it at times).
Dont worry about what you write here, it is of much use to yourself (I hope) and to your readers (for which I can vouch), it is a wonderful way to share and learn. And if you happen to impress someone into starting the practice, where is the harm? There really is nothing wrong with a little showing-off as long as the intention is alright. Given that you are doing what you are doing, you dont even have to say that its being done for the benefit of all beings, there is no doubt about it, its part of the course.
All the best.
Comment by Pavel — June 21, 2010 @ 6:39 pm
> It’s not that hard to stop wanting to be the winner once you’ve won.
Hm, not quite what I meant. I mean there’s this strange thing in the ‘MSM’ in which desire & craving is the sole measure of virtue. ‘I deserve it because I /want/ it more than the other guy’. But I don’t want to hijack this thread.
Comment by speedbird — June 22, 2010 @ 9:41 am
@ Pavel:
Well, your comments on this stuff have a level of honesty and clarity to them that I appreciate, and I think that says something about what you’ve attained to. Thanks again for sharing your experience here.
A couple of great reminder right there, things I need to keep telling myself over and over.
I’ve seen this mentioned over at Kenneth’s forum, that jhanna practice seems to be better pursued after 1st path, if its not something that comes naturally to the practitioner. You’re definitely not the only one I’ve seen say this.
And thanks for the reassurances about what I’m doing here as well. It means a lot to know it can come across that way.
Comment by Ian — June 22, 2010 @ 4:23 pm
and @ speedbird:
No worries about hijacking the threads here. I don’t think this little site is popular enough to worry about comment threads getting hijacked. Whatever anyone’s got to say is welcome here, pretty much, and I’ll mention if I find anything personally offensive.
basically, you’re contributing, not hijacking. ;)
And yeah, imagine that, virtue = wanting it more. Long ways away from what virtue used to mean. Comes from being told its important to want things, I suppose, or at least, from some base level of unhappiness that’s not being addressed. As that builds, it would make sense that the noise we make to cover it up builds as with it…
Comment by Ian — June 22, 2010 @ 4:28 pm
Nice – on the 13th I saw a snake disappear into a pile of broken concrete rubble and old rusted iron, in the middle if a surreal cow pasture that had at one point been mined for gravel … when we went to check it out, we discovered the snake had left a fresh skin behind in the weeds. I found the whole place deeply stimulating and the snakeskin seemed important but I wasnt sure why, and didnt really try to figure it out – I just wound up making this kind of living sculpture thing out of materials from the pile – a crush, rusty bucket with surfaces covered in chunks of moss and pieces of dried cow flop, broken concrete, dead thistle branches (that the snake had shed its skin on), etc – and of course centrally, the snake’s shed skin. I have been kind of waiting for some interpretation to come clear to me since (it’s a long story but I was out in the pasture with someone under some confusing circumstances), and this post was helpful toward this … it seems I always get interesting things when I come reading, so thanks again!
Comment by Max — June 23, 2010 @ 1:52 pm
Awesome, thanks for sharing Max. Would love to see a picture of that sculpture, if one’s available. If anything else snakeskin related comes up, let me know.
Comment by Ian — June 24, 2010 @ 12:31 pm
Of course there is all that stuff about ‘knock and the door shall be opened, seek and ye shall find’.
*
I recall a couple of years back my partner and I encountered a street-corner evangelist.
My partner: ‘What’s he selling?’
Me (after a brief pause for thought): ‘God’.
My partner: ‘I thought He was free to everyone.’
Comment by speedbird — June 26, 2010 @ 6:08 am
>> All ideas of self, all concepts we hold on to about who we are, are really just sensations that have arisen inside of us, in response to something that was occurring in the moment. We have taken these things to be “what we are” when they are really just a form that “what we are” has taken on in response to the moment. Like a snake, we need to let these self concepts pull away, or else we will constatly be snagging them on things as we go along. This causes suffering, and we were better off just letting them go and moving on.
Do you think it’s significant in any way that it was a snake that triggered this insight?
Comment by speedbird — June 26, 2010 @ 6:12 am
Possibly, I hadn’t thought about it at that kind of level before.
Though it was a dead snake. Not sure what that means in regards to significance.
Only if you keep knocking. :)
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